Comments on: Menzies and the problem of the “Smoking Gun” document http://www.froginawell.net/china/2006/01/menzies-and-the-problem-of-the-smoking-gun-document/ The China History Group Blog Mon, 15 Mar 2010 02:40:25 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Michael Ross http://www.froginawell.net/china/2006/01/menzies-and-the-problem-of-the-smoking-gun-document/comment-page-1/#comment-166943 Michael Ross Sun, 07 Feb 2010 08:16:30 +0000 http://www.froginawell.net/china/?p=75#comment-166943 David G Have you made any progress with your research yet? I may be able to assist you with the cartographic aspects of that research. Have you established the provenance of your map yet? Any serious researcher is going to want to assure themselves they are working with the "real thing" before they devote any time to your proposed project. David G
Have you made any progress with your research yet? I may be able to assist you with the cartographic aspects of that research.

Have you established the provenance of your map yet? Any serious researcher is going to want to assure themselves they are working with the “real thing” before they devote any time to your proposed project.

]]> By: Jonathan Dresner http://www.froginawell.net/china/2006/01/menzies-and-the-problem-of-the-smoking-gun-document/comment-page-1/#comment-158255 Jonathan Dresner Fri, 03 Jul 2009 01:06:26 +0000 http://www.froginawell.net/china/?p=75#comment-158255 David: You understand, don't you, that the vast majority of our readers think Menzies' ideas are worthless? I'm not the expert you're looking for, but even if I were I would never operate under a cloak of confidentiality that would prevent me from saying publicly if I disagree with your interpretation of the material. David: You understand, don’t you, that the vast majority of our readers think Menzies’ ideas are worthless? I’m not the expert you’re looking for, but even if I were I would never operate under a cloak of confidentiality that would prevent me from saying publicly if I disagree with your interpretation of the material.

]]> By: David G. http://www.froginawell.net/china/2006/01/menzies-and-the-problem-of-the-smoking-gun-document/comment-page-1/#comment-158238 David G. Thu, 02 Jul 2009 19:06:26 +0000 http://www.froginawell.net/china/?p=75#comment-158238 It has almost been two years since anyone has left a message here; I hope to receive an answer to my quest which is: I would like an expert in old Chinese maps to contact me in reguards to furthering the research of He's travels. We have located an early map that needs to be translated. We are willing to provide a group of select sections of the map in order to identify and clarify locations presented by the map. This is a world map which appears to be 14-15th century in orgin and could verify the Treasure fleet once and for all. The map notations are very hard to read and may be in code, yet some Chinese characters are present. We have yet to perfect a retrival system to enable a perfect azminth for a balanced picture. The party selected could become an intrigal part of the discovery but a team may be needed. Images are copyrighted and confidentiality a must. Thank you. David G. It has almost been two years since anyone has left a message here; I hope to receive an answer to my quest which is: I would like an expert in old Chinese maps to contact me in reguards to furthering the research of He’s travels. We have located an early map that needs to be translated. We are willing to provide a group of select sections of the map in order to identify and clarify locations presented by the map. This is a world map which appears to be 14-15th century in orgin and could verify the Treasure fleet once and for all. The map notations are very hard to read and may be in code, yet some Chinese characters are present. We have yet to perfect a retrival system to enable a perfect azminth for a balanced picture. The party selected could become an intrigal part of the discovery but a team may be needed. Images are copyrighted and confidentiality a must.
Thank you.
David G.

]]> By: Not my name http://www.froginawell.net/china/2006/01/menzies-and-the-problem-of-the-smoking-gun-document/comment-page-1/#comment-67146 Not my name Sun, 16 Sep 2007 22:04:21 +0000 http://www.froginawell.net/china/?p=75#comment-67146 Obviously recreated as Britain made first contact with China, they even have a name for America, it sounds the same: "A Mei Li Jia". As advanced as the Chinese were, I doubt they could read minds in the future, they could not have possibly guessed the modern name of America. Obviously recreated as Britain made first contact with China, they even have a name for America, it sounds the same: “A Mei Li Jia”. As advanced as the Chinese were, I doubt they could read minds in the future, they could not have possibly guessed the modern name of America.

]]> By: Jonathan Dresner http://www.froginawell.net/china/2006/01/menzies-and-the-problem-of-the-smoking-gun-document/comment-page-1/#comment-35866 Jonathan Dresner Wed, 07 Mar 2007 19:20:09 +0000 http://www.froginawell.net/china/?p=75#comment-35866 Zuraffo: A substantial number of people on both sides have examined the evidence: that's what we've been linking to. Given the self-promotion and historical density of Menzies and his supporters, I thought Finlay's rebuttal was reasonably restrained, but sharp enough to get across the true disdain with which this "evidence" should be handled. If you're looking for "balance" then you have to abandon the possibility that one side or the other might be right. Menzies' thesis is that something extraordinary happened, but to be taken seriously he has to offer credible evidence. None of the evidence he's offered is credible, therefore the thesis is eminently rejectable without needing to adduce bias, profit motives or trivialization. The traditional Chinese historiography of which you seem so fond was not "unabridged" at all, but narrowly focused on political affairs, highly tendentious at times (look at the Wang Anshi debates sometime!), often sycophantic and politically expedient (e.g. the History of the Ming commissioned by the Qing), and imbued with a mystical theory (Confucianism) which gave credence to all kinds of ahistorical pseudo-evidence. We're all fond of Sima Qian, but it was kind of downhill from there.... Zuraffo: A substantial number of people on both sides have examined the evidence: that’s what we’ve been linking to. Given the self-promotion and historical density of Menzies and his supporters, I thought Finlay’s rebuttal was reasonably restrained, but sharp enough to get across the true disdain with which this “evidence” should be handled. If you’re looking for “balance” then you have to abandon the possibility that one side or the other might be right. Menzies’ thesis is that something extraordinary happened, but to be taken seriously he has to offer credible evidence. None of the evidence he’s offered is credible, therefore the thesis is eminently rejectable without needing to adduce bias, profit motives or trivialization.

The traditional Chinese historiography of which you seem so fond was not “unabridged” at all, but narrowly focused on political affairs, highly tendentious at times (look at the Wang Anshi debates sometime!), often sycophantic and politically expedient (e.g. the History of the Ming commissioned by the Qing), and imbued with a mystical theory (Confucianism) which gave credence to all kinds of ahistorical pseudo-evidence. We’re all fond of Sima Qian, but it was kind of downhill from there….

]]> By: Zuraffo http://www.froginawell.net/china/2006/01/menzies-and-the-problem-of-the-smoking-gun-document/comment-page-1/#comment-21239 Zuraffo Mon, 22 Jan 2007 22:34:15 +0000 http://www.froginawell.net/china/?p=75#comment-21239 I wonder how many of the detractors and/or supporters actually took time to examine the original/unabridged source regarding this matter, or people just pick and choose the side of arguments which they preferred and search relevant arguments to shore up their beliefs. This is a very bold endeavors which requires not only the contribution from historians, but navigators, engineers, biologists, linguists, etc to either prove/disprove its authenticity. A handful of people supporting/detracting the theory is only the beginning and should not be conclusive in any objective people's viewpoint. It should have been a matter between academic scholars, yet how often have histories been used in political / commercial pursue? I have read the Robert Finlay supposedly 'rebuttal' to the book, and I am totally unimpressed. It is bad enough that Gavin Menzies has to commercialize this part of chinese history, but the 'rebuttal' by an alledgedly expert has to be smart-mouthed and personal insults is just beyond comprehension. So much hope of the professionalism of Experts. The only truth I see from this purported 'exchange' is that BOTH sides of the arguments are profiteering from attention and great book sales. Personally, I do not enjoy the trivializing of serious subject matters. Yet, in this age of global capitalism and consumerism, what is NOT trivialized and commercialized? Gone were the days where ancient chinese historians risks angering the emperor and their life by recording unabridged truth. Nowadays historians sell books and setup websites. I wonder how many of the detractors and/or supporters actually took time to examine the original/unabridged source regarding this matter, or people just pick and choose the side of arguments which they preferred and search relevant arguments to shore up their beliefs.

This is a very bold endeavors which requires not only the contribution from historians, but navigators, engineers, biologists, linguists, etc to either prove/disprove its authenticity. A handful of people supporting/detracting the theory is only the beginning and should not be conclusive in any objective people’s viewpoint.

It should have been a matter between academic scholars, yet how often have histories been used in political / commercial pursue?

I have read the Robert Finlay supposedly ‘rebuttal’ to the book, and I am totally unimpressed. It is bad enough that Gavin Menzies has to commercialize this part of chinese history, but the ‘rebuttal’ by an alledgedly expert has to be smart-mouthed and personal insults is just beyond comprehension. So much hope of the professionalism of Experts.

The only truth I see from this purported ‘exchange’ is that BOTH sides of the arguments are profiteering from attention and great book sales. Personally, I do not enjoy the trivializing of serious subject matters. Yet, in this age of global capitalism and consumerism, what is NOT trivialized and commercialized?

Gone were the days where ancient chinese historians risks angering the emperor and their life by recording unabridged truth. Nowadays historians sell books and setup websites.

]]> By: Geoff Wade http://www.froginawell.net/china/2006/01/menzies-and-the-problem-of-the-smoking-gun-document/comment-page-1/#comment-3387 Geoff Wade Thu, 03 Aug 2006 17:26:00 +0000 http://www.froginawell.net/china/?p=75#comment-3387 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: H-Net list for Asian History and Culture on behalf of Ryan Dunch Sent: Thu 03/08/2006 01:43 To: H-ASIA@H-NET.MSU.EDU Subject: H-ASIA: Australian television program on Gavin Menzies and 1421 H-ASIA August 2, 2006 Australian television program on Gavin Menzies and 1421 ******************************************************************** From: Geoff Wade Dear all, Further details of the program including some extended interviews are available at: http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2006/s1699373.htm The transcript of the program is here http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2006/s1702333.htm Best, Geoff Wade National University of Singapore ************************************************************************* To post to H-ASIA simply send your message to: For holidays or short absences send post to: with message: SET H-ASIA NOMAIL Upon return, send post with message SET H-ASIA MAIL H-ASIA WEB HOMEPAGE URL: http://h-net.msu.edu/~asia/ ——————————————————————————–
From: H-Net list for Asian History and Culture on behalf of Ryan Dunch
Sent: Thu 03/08/2006 01:43
To: H-ASIA@H-NET.MSU.EDU
Subject: H-ASIA: Australian television program on Gavin Menzies and 1421

H-ASIA
August 2, 2006

Australian television program on Gavin Menzies and 1421
********************************************************************
From: Geoff Wade

Dear all,

Further details of the program including some extended interviews are
available at:

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2006/s1699373.htm

The transcript of the program is here

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2006/s1702333.htm

Best,

Geoff Wade
National University of Singapore

*************************************************************************
To post to H-ASIA simply send your message to:

For holidays or short absences send post to:
with message:
SET H-ASIA NOMAIL
Upon return, send post with message SET H-ASIA MAIL
H-ASIA WEB HOMEPAGE URL: http://h-net.msu.edu/~asia/

]]> By: Jonathan Dresner http://www.froginawell.net/china/2006/01/menzies-and-the-problem-of-the-smoking-gun-document/comment-page-1/#comment-870 Jonathan Dresner Sat, 20 May 2006 03:58:32 +0000 http://www.froginawell.net/china/?p=75#comment-870 Yawn.... <a href="http://www.1421exposed.com/html/1763_map.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.1421exposed.com/html/1763_map.html</a>, especially <a href="http://www.1421exposed.com/html/where_is_the_liu_fragment_.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.1421exposed.com/html/where_is_the_liu_fragment_.html</a>. Short version: old paper is easy to find. Yawn…. http://www.1421exposed.com/html/1763_map.html, especially http://www.1421exposed.com/html/where_is_the_liu_fragment_.html. Short version: old paper is easy to find.

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