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	<title>Comments on: Chinese in Motion</title>
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	<link>http://www.froginawell.net/china/2006/08/chinese-in-motion/</link>
	<description>The China History Group Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Dresner</title>
		<link>http://www.froginawell.net/china/2006/08/chinese-in-motion/comment-page-1/#comment-11499</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Dresner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Nov 2006 20:32:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.froginawell.net/china/2006/08/chinese-in-motion/#comment-11499</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been aware of the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.froginawell.net/china/2005/08/51st-state/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Taiwan issue&lt;/a&gt; for a while. Interesting to see that someone is trying to make it stick.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been aware of the <a href="http://www.froginawell.net/china/2005/08/51st-state/" rel="nofollow">Taiwan issue</a> for a while. Interesting to see that someone is trying to make it stick.</p>
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		<title>By: Roger C. S. Lin</title>
		<link>http://www.froginawell.net/china/2006/08/chinese-in-motion/comment-page-1/#comment-11472</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger C. S. Lin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Nov 2006 13:20:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.froginawell.net/china/2006/08/chinese-in-motion/#comment-11472</guid>
		<description>The comments that &quot;China has never owned Taiwan&quot; and &quot;Taiwan was never the possession of any ethnic Chinese emperor&quot; don&#039;t quite go far enough.  The fact is that the Republic of China has no legal claims to Taiwan either. For those who are unfamiliar with the history, when the ROC was founded in 1912, Taiwan was part of Japan.  In 1945, the military troops of Chiang Kai-shek were directed to come to Taiwan to accept the surrender of Japanese forces, thus marking the beginning of the military occupation of Taiwan.  The United States is the &quot;conqueror&quot; and the &quot;principal occupying power&quot;, and the ROC military troops are only exercising delegated administrative authority for the military occupation.  In the post war peace treaty, the territorial sovereignty of Taiwan was not awarded to the ROC.  Based on these historical and legal facts, Taiwan is &quot;an overseas territory under the jurisdiction of the USA.&quot;  A new lawsuit has been filed in Washington D.C. in order to have the Taiwanese people&#039;s rights under US laws, and the US Constitution, fully recognized.   Details on the case are available at -- http://www.taiwankey.net/dc/tforumtw.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The comments that &#8220;China has never owned Taiwan&#8221; and &#8220;Taiwan was never the possession of any ethnic Chinese emperor&#8221; don&#8217;t quite go far enough.  The fact is that the Republic of China has no legal claims to Taiwan either. For those who are unfamiliar with the history, when the ROC was founded in 1912, Taiwan was part of Japan.  In 1945, the military troops of Chiang Kai-shek were directed to come to Taiwan to accept the surrender of Japanese forces, thus marking the beginning of the military occupation of Taiwan.  The United States is the &#8220;conqueror&#8221; and the &#8220;principal occupying power&#8221;, and the ROC military troops are only exercising delegated administrative authority for the military occupation.  In the post war peace treaty, the territorial sovereignty of Taiwan was not awarded to the ROC.  Based on these historical and legal facts, Taiwan is &#8220;an overseas territory under the jurisdiction of the USA.&#8221;  A new lawsuit has been filed in Washington D.C. in order to have the Taiwanese people&#8217;s rights under US laws, and the US Constitution, fully recognized.   Details on the case are available at &#8212; <a href="http://www.taiwankey.net/dc/tforumtw.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.taiwankey.net/dc/tforumtw.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: J.</title>
		<link>http://www.froginawell.net/china/2006/08/chinese-in-motion/comment-page-1/#comment-5297</link>
		<dc:creator>J.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Sep 2006 17:44:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.froginawell.net/china/2006/08/chinese-in-motion/#comment-5297</guid>
		<description>Sorry, I wasn&#039;t more clear in comment #9 as in my original comment (#7). Koxinga was kind an aside to my larger argument anyway.  By &#039;competing claims&#039; I wasn&#039;t disputing his lineage, only the continued use of Koxinga in popular culture and mythology, sometimes as a Chinese hero, sometimes as a Japanese, and sometimes as a Taiwanese hero.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, I wasn&#8217;t more clear in comment #9 as in my original comment (#7). Koxinga was kind an aside to my larger argument anyway.  By &#8216;competing claims&#8217; I wasn&#8217;t disputing his lineage, only the continued use of Koxinga in popular culture and mythology, sometimes as a Chinese hero, sometimes as a Japanese, and sometimes as a Taiwanese hero.</p>
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		<title>By: Mutantfrog</title>
		<link>http://www.froginawell.net/china/2006/08/chinese-in-motion/comment-page-1/#comment-5239</link>
		<dc:creator>Mutantfrog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Sep 2006 01:42:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.froginawell.net/china/2006/08/chinese-in-motion/#comment-5239</guid>
		<description>J, as far as I know there are no competing claims for Koxinga&#039;s lineage. I&#039;ve seen multiple sources in Chinese, Japanese and English that all say his mother was Japanese. The exact details of how much time he lived in Japan as a child and so on are perhaps a little less clear, but his actual parentage seems to have been well document.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>J, as far as I know there are no competing claims for Koxinga&#8217;s lineage. I&#8217;ve seen multiple sources in Chinese, Japanese and English that all say his mother was Japanese. The exact details of how much time he lived in Japan as a child and so on are perhaps a little less clear, but his actual parentage seems to have been well document.</p>
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		<title>By: J.</title>
		<link>http://www.froginawell.net/china/2006/08/chinese-in-motion/comment-page-1/#comment-3924</link>
		<dc:creator>J.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Aug 2006 10:20:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.froginawell.net/china/2006/08/chinese-in-motion/#comment-3924</guid>
		<description>lirelou,

I would agree with you.  I think it is fascinating how the figure of Koxinga has been deployed in Taiwan, China, and Japan.  There are temples assigned to him in, I believe, both Taiwan and Japan.  In literature, he is appears often in stories, novels, and teleplays in China and was also the subject of Chikamatasu Monzaemon&#039;s play (bunraku, was it?) &quot;The Battle of Koxinga.&quot; (国姓爺合戦) As for Koxinga&#039;s lineage, don&#039;t you think that it&#039;s sometimes more interesting to track the (often competing) claims on a particular historical figure over time than it is to try to peg down the actual birthblace or nationality?  Columbus was a nice comparison.  Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>lirelou,</p>
<p>I would agree with you.  I think it is fascinating how the figure of Koxinga has been deployed in Taiwan, China, and Japan.  There are temples assigned to him in, I believe, both Taiwan and Japan.  In literature, he is appears often in stories, novels, and teleplays in China and was also the subject of Chikamatasu Monzaemon&#8217;s play (bunraku, was it?) &#8220;The Battle of Koxinga.&#8221; (国姓爺合戦) As for Koxinga&#8217;s lineage, don&#8217;t you think that it&#8217;s sometimes more interesting to track the (often competing) claims on a particular historical figure over time than it is to try to peg down the actual birthblace or nationality?  Columbus was a nice comparison.  Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: lirelou</title>
		<link>http://www.froginawell.net/china/2006/08/chinese-in-motion/comment-page-1/#comment-3915</link>
		<dc:creator>lirelou</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Aug 2006 04:40:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.froginawell.net/china/2006/08/chinese-in-motion/#comment-3915</guid>
		<description>J. Many of the arguments pro and con Koxinga&#039;s career remind me of arguments pro and con a certain Genoan born Cristobal Colon/Cristofero Colombo, possibly the son of a Jewish mother or &quot;conversos&quot;, who sailed for Spain and died &quot;Admiral of the Ocean Sea&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>J. Many of the arguments pro and con Koxinga&#8217;s career remind me of arguments pro and con a certain Genoan born Cristobal Colon/Cristofero Colombo, possibly the son of a Jewish mother or &#8220;conversos&#8221;, who sailed for Spain and died &#8220;Admiral of the Ocean Sea&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: J.</title>
		<link>http://www.froginawell.net/china/2006/08/chinese-in-motion/comment-page-1/#comment-3795</link>
		<dc:creator>J.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Aug 2006 16:59:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.froginawell.net/china/2006/08/chinese-in-motion/#comment-3795</guid>
		<description>Then should we grant that the People&#039;s Republic of China the status as the inheritors of the Qing Empire? Are Qing and China the same thing? When people ask me my field of study, I tend to reply &quot;History of the Qing Empire&quot; and then respond to the inevitable quizzical looks by simplifying my response as &quot;Chinese&quot; History.  Taiwan, Tibet, and Xinjiang all at some point or another fell under direct control of the Qing government.  The PRC&#039;s claims to these territories is based on their being the direct successors to the Qing. Countries such as the US might want to tread lightly in sorting out territorial sovereignty claims based on historical conquest and territorial seizure.  (Many Americans would like to see a &quot;Free Tibet&quot; but not so many are eager to give Alta California back to Mexico.)  

As Sun Bin suggests, the principle of self determination seems a stronger argument here.  What do the people in those places really want? Is there any way to accurately measure support for independence or change in status?  

In the end, the issues of territorial integrity suggest (after Kuhn&#039;s Soulstealers) a dark forboding in prosperous times for the current regime.  If the Qianlong Emperor&#039;s boogie man was Manchu ethnicity then surely for the CCP one important question is its own legitimacy as the heirs of an Empire.  

I agree with scholars such as Peking University&#039;s Pan Wei 潘维 (admittedly controversial) who have suggested that China needs to develop the confidence to admit that their claims to these territories are based solely on Qing conquest but that what&#039;s done is done and it&#039;s all a part of China now. This would stop the silly charade of Chinese History textbooks in the PRC spending pages tracing the depths of the friendship between Han and Central Asian down to the days of the Han Dynasty and whatnot. 

Final note, I would modify Sun Bin&#039;s claim by saying that Zheng Chenggong/Koxinga 鄭成功/國姓爺 had more than just &quot;some Japanese gene in his blood,&quot; his mother was fully Japanese and some sources claim that he was actually born in Nagasaki Prefecture in Japan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Then should we grant that the People&#8217;s Republic of China the status as the inheritors of the Qing Empire? Are Qing and China the same thing? When people ask me my field of study, I tend to reply &#8220;History of the Qing Empire&#8221; and then respond to the inevitable quizzical looks by simplifying my response as &#8220;Chinese&#8221; History.  Taiwan, Tibet, and Xinjiang all at some point or another fell under direct control of the Qing government.  The PRC&#8217;s claims to these territories is based on their being the direct successors to the Qing. Countries such as the US might want to tread lightly in sorting out territorial sovereignty claims based on historical conquest and territorial seizure.  (Many Americans would like to see a &#8220;Free Tibet&#8221; but not so many are eager to give Alta California back to Mexico.)  </p>
<p>As Sun Bin suggests, the principle of self determination seems a stronger argument here.  What do the people in those places really want? Is there any way to accurately measure support for independence or change in status?  </p>
<p>In the end, the issues of territorial integrity suggest (after Kuhn&#8217;s Soulstealers) a dark forboding in prosperous times for the current regime.  If the Qianlong Emperor&#8217;s boogie man was Manchu ethnicity then surely for the CCP one important question is its own legitimacy as the heirs of an Empire.  </p>
<p>I agree with scholars such as Peking University&#8217;s Pan Wei 潘维 (admittedly controversial) who have suggested that China needs to develop the confidence to admit that their claims to these territories are based solely on Qing conquest but that what&#8217;s done is done and it&#8217;s all a part of China now. This would stop the silly charade of Chinese History textbooks in the PRC spending pages tracing the depths of the friendship between Han and Central Asian down to the days of the Han Dynasty and whatnot. </p>
<p>Final note, I would modify Sun Bin&#8217;s claim by saying that Zheng Chenggong/Koxinga 鄭成功/國姓爺 had more than just &#8220;some Japanese gene in his blood,&#8221; his mother was fully Japanese and some sources claim that he was actually born in Nagasaki Prefecture in Japan.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Anthony Jones</title>
		<link>http://www.froginawell.net/china/2006/08/chinese-in-motion/comment-page-1/#comment-3777</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Anthony Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Aug 2006 03:29:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks JFD - I appreciate your support, and I hope that you and your readers will participate in the current debate. One always has something new to learn through debate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks JFD &#8211; I appreciate your support, and I hope that you and your readers will participate in the current debate. One always has something new to learn through debate.</p>
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