Comments on: Bad History: Mongols good, US bad?

By: Michael

Michael — Thu, 27 Dec 2007 07:17:19 +0000

If Bush is”one of the great men” then what are those found in the bottom of my toilet?

By: Old is the New New :: Bad History Carnival

Old is the New New :: Bad History Carnival — Tue, 27 Feb 2007 22:16:33 +0000

[...] think much of Jack Weatherford’s urging U.S. policy makers in Iraq to learn from the Mongol invasion of Persia. In other war news, Scott McLemee wondered if George W. Bush is, like Genghis, one of the Great Men [...]

By: Frog in a Well - The Japan History Group Blog

Frog in a Well - The Japan History Group Blog — Sun, 04 Feb 2007 07:33:52 +0000

[...] from the previous six weeks and some things I missed: I did a little bad history takedown on some Mongol/Iraq analogizing. I still haven’t figured out why the generally progressive and anti-statist Japan Focus ran [...]

By: Jonathan Dresner

Jonathan Dresner — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:44:04 +0000

Jim: There is indeed a huge differential in force projection capacity between Iraqi insurgents and US forces, but their ability to use force is pretty obvious, whereas Mongols thoroughly disarmed the populations they occupied, which they could do because premodern weapons and pre-industrial production made it less likely that large quantities of effective weapons would be available to an insurgency. It's worth noting that, as Mongol rule broke down, rebellions in places like China did manage to find weapons and use them, but that doesn't come for better than a century in most places.

By: Jon Fernquest

Jon Fernquest — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:13:49 +0000

It is a little frightening that Weatherford is proposing the Mongols as an example for emulation in policy. IMHO Straight Comparison might reveal some universals, e.g. “proxy armies, mass population displacement, ’selective’ massacres, blanket execution of leadership…”

The Mongol displacement of the government of Pagan in Upper Burma from 1270 to 1300 and the succeeding chaos, known as the “Ava Period” of Burmese history (c. 1364-1527) bears a closer resemblance to what actually happened in Iraq. About 50 years ago there was some work done on the relevant entries in the Yuan Shi:

Luce, Gordon Hannington. (1958) “The Early Syam in Burma’s History.” Journal of the Siam Society 46 (1958): 123-214.

Luce, Gordon Hannington. (1959) “The Early Syam in Burma’s History: A Supplement.” Journal of the Siam Society 47.1 (1959): 59-101.

By: Jim

Jim — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 07:20:33 +0000

I’m surprised you think it was easier for the Mongols to monopolize force than it has been for the US in Iraq. I’m very ignorant of military affairs, but you’d think even given access to small arms and RPGs, with no armour, sat intel or air cover surely you have a much bigger force gap than, say, local infantry levies against Mongolian cavalry?

By: Jonathan Dresner

Jonathan Dresner — Tue, 16 Jan 2007 05:31:34 +0000

Yeah, I've cited Dower before. Thanks for the head's up on Weatherford's book. I wonder if it's possible to write an analogy to Iraq using the Communist-Nationalist civil war to illustrate the different approaches to occupation and hearts-n-minds?

By: Alan Baumler

Alan Baumler — Tue, 16 Jan 2007 03:45:03 +0000

I was not that impressed with Weatherford’s book on the Mongols, so I’m not surprised that his lessons from Mongol history are not of much help. Now if you want insight on Iraq from Asian history John Dower would be much better

http://www.guardian.co.uk/analysis/story/0,3604,843740,00.html