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	<title>Comments on: What can China learn from the Jews</title>
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	<link>http://www.froginawell.net/china/2008/08/what-can-china-learn-from-the-jews/</link>
	<description>The China History Group Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Ola</title>
		<link>http://www.froginawell.net/china/2008/08/what-can-china-learn-from-the-jews/comment-page-1/#comment-127571</link>
		<dc:creator>Ola</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2008 09:10:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.froginawell.net/china/?p=568#comment-127571</guid>
		<description>If Chinese people angered by Western criticism wants to combat it, following the so-called &quot;Jewish Model&quot; could prove VERY counterproductive. Some Israeli groups tendency to use anti-semitism as a &quot;great silencer&quot; have annoyed many Europeans, and might even lead to actual anti-semitism beeing overlooked.

There is a tendency among Chinese to do the same - any critism of the Chinese government is based on a &quot;lack of understanding of China&quot;, and often also a supposed anti-Chinese attitude that many Chinese think is widespread i Western countries. Instead of answering to critisism in a proper way, Chinese all to often hurl these accusations on anyone who dares to critise their &quot;Zuguo&quot;.

Instead of using this tactic, Chinese who wants to answer to Western critisism should try doing to avoid getting hotheaded, and save accusations of rasicm for cases where racism is indeed involved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If Chinese people angered by Western criticism wants to combat it, following the so-called &#8220;Jewish Model&#8221; could prove VERY counterproductive. Some Israeli groups tendency to use anti-semitism as a &#8220;great silencer&#8221; have annoyed many Europeans, and might even lead to actual anti-semitism beeing overlooked.</p>
<p>There is a tendency among Chinese to do the same &#8211; any critism of the Chinese government is based on a &#8220;lack of understanding of China&#8221;, and often also a supposed anti-Chinese attitude that many Chinese think is widespread i Western countries. Instead of answering to critisism in a proper way, Chinese all to often hurl these accusations on anyone who dares to critise their &#8220;Zuguo&#8221;.</p>
<p>Instead of using this tactic, Chinese who wants to answer to Western critisism should try doing to avoid getting hotheaded, and save accusations of rasicm for cases where racism is indeed involved.</p>
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		<title>By: wooddoo</title>
		<link>http://www.froginawell.net/china/2008/08/what-can-china-learn-from-the-jews/comment-page-1/#comment-127376</link>
		<dc:creator>wooddoo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 20:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.froginawell.net/china/?p=568#comment-127376</guid>
		<description>Italy is planning to pay retribution to Libya. The West prospered on the ebony
trade and the looting of other parts of the world. Before the West pays back - Italy being a good start - 
they will never have the moral high ground. It&#039;s a widely shared view among non-westerners (the majority of the world) that 
after robbing the world, westerners used the spoil to buy fancy clothes and build beautiful houses 
and started to teach the world &quot;Hey you should be civilized like us.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Italy is planning to pay retribution to Libya. The West prospered on the ebony<br />
trade and the looting of other parts of the world. Before the West pays back &#8211; Italy being a good start &#8211;<br />
they will never have the moral high ground. It&#8217;s a widely shared view among non-westerners (the majority of the world) that<br />
after robbing the world, westerners used the spoil to buy fancy clothes and build beautiful houses<br />
and started to teach the world &#8220;Hey you should be civilized like us.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: FOARP</title>
		<link>http://www.froginawell.net/china/2008/08/what-can-china-learn-from-the-jews/comment-page-1/#comment-127318</link>
		<dc:creator>FOARP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 12:45:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.froginawell.net/china/?p=568#comment-127318</guid>
		<description>@Ben - The problem is that those who are informed realise that much of the narrative of &quot;europe’s destruction of china under colonialism&quot; is exaggerated to serve the CCP&#039;s goals. The damage caused by the Opium Wars and the relief of the legations (by a force including the US and Japanese troops - not just &#039;europeans&#039;) in 1899-1900 is vanishingly small when compared to that caused by the various civil wars that broke out between 1850 and 1976, or the Japanese invasion. This is not to make light of events like the burning of the Yuanmingyuan, but they hardly compare to Bergen-Belsen, nor do modern &#039;europeans&#039; bear any responsibility for them, nor is there any real reason that the average &#039;european&#039; should be any more aware of them than, say, the fate of the native Americans, or the Zulu wars.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Ben &#8211; The problem is that those who are informed realise that much of the narrative of &#8220;europe’s destruction of china under colonialism&#8221; is exaggerated to serve the CCP&#8217;s goals. The damage caused by the Opium Wars and the relief of the legations (by a force including the US and Japanese troops &#8211; not just &#8216;europeans&#8217;) in 1899-1900 is vanishingly small when compared to that caused by the various civil wars that broke out between 1850 and 1976, or the Japanese invasion. This is not to make light of events like the burning of the Yuanmingyuan, but they hardly compare to Bergen-Belsen, nor do modern &#8216;europeans&#8217; bear any responsibility for them, nor is there any real reason that the average &#8216;european&#8217; should be any more aware of them than, say, the fate of the native Americans, or the Zulu wars.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://www.froginawell.net/china/2008/08/what-can-china-learn-from-the-jews/comment-page-1/#comment-127109</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2008 02:57:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.froginawell.net/china/?p=568#comment-127109</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m jewish, and I personally think the anti-semitism card has been played much too much to defend israel.  Israel is not the same as the jewish people; neither is the chinese government the same as the chinese people.  Criticizing israel is &lt;i&gt;commendable&lt;/i&gt; if israel has actually done something wrong, and is &lt;i&gt;completely different&lt;/i&gt; from making generalizations about jewish people, which is what antisemitism is.

Westerners generally don&#039;t understand how much the chinese people support their government, or identify their government, their country, and their people as being three aspects of the same thing.  They are baffled when chinese people take criticism of the chinese government as a personal attack.  And they are generally uninformed about europe&#039;s destruction of china under colonialism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m jewish, and I personally think the anti-semitism card has been played much too much to defend israel.  Israel is not the same as the jewish people; neither is the chinese government the same as the chinese people.  Criticizing israel is <i>commendable</i> if israel has actually done something wrong, and is <i>completely different</i> from making generalizations about jewish people, which is what antisemitism is.</p>
<p>Westerners generally don&#8217;t understand how much the chinese people support their government, or identify their government, their country, and their people as being three aspects of the same thing.  They are baffled when chinese people take criticism of the chinese government as a personal attack.  And they are generally uninformed about europe&#8217;s destruction of china under colonialism.</p>
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		<title>By: FOARP</title>
		<link>http://www.froginawell.net/china/2008/08/what-can-china-learn-from-the-jews/comment-page-1/#comment-127099</link>
		<dc:creator>FOARP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 22:11:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.froginawell.net/china/?p=568#comment-127099</guid>
		<description>&quot;绝对是种族主义&quot;

Yeah, not some idiot shooting his mouth off, and later clarifying what he said.

As for attempting to copy organisations like the Anti-Defamation League, well, I don&#039;t see it working. As long as Tiananmen remains in the public memory nobody is going to interpret criticism of the Chinese government as &#039;racism&#039;, nor do the vast majority of people shy off criticism of Israel&#039;s policies in the Palestinian areas and Lebanon through fear of being accused of anti-semitism, even if a certain fringe of the Jewish policy interprets all criticism of Israel as such.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;绝对是种族主义&#8221;</p>
<p>Yeah, not some idiot shooting his mouth off, and later clarifying what he said.</p>
<p>As for attempting to copy organisations like the Anti-Defamation League, well, I don&#8217;t see it working. As long as Tiananmen remains in the public memory nobody is going to interpret criticism of the Chinese government as &#8216;racism&#8217;, nor do the vast majority of people shy off criticism of Israel&#8217;s policies in the Palestinian areas and Lebanon through fear of being accused of anti-semitism, even if a certain fringe of the Jewish policy interprets all criticism of Israel as such.</p>
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		<title>By: JL</title>
		<link>http://www.froginawell.net/china/2008/08/what-can-china-learn-from-the-jews/comment-page-1/#comment-127092</link>
		<dc:creator>JL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 20:58:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.froginawell.net/china/?p=568#comment-127092</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m also surprised by some of the views that Liu expresses here. Particularly the view of Tibet. 

&quot;我在国外发现，很多知识，甚至是左翼知识分子，在西藏问题上都是跟着主流媒体走的。他们问我怎么看，我会告诉他们，西藏的事情从来不止是西藏与整个中国的事情，一定要在全球格局和殖民历史的上下文中来看&quot;
&quot;While I was outside China, I discovered that most intellectuals, even left wing intellectuals, have the same views of Tibet as the mainstream media. They ask me what I think, and I say that the Tibet issue has never just been an issue between China and Tibet. Rather you have to see it within the context of the history of [Euro-American] imperialism and globalisation.&quot;

True enough, but what surprises me, is that despite being well connected with those non-PRC China scholarship, Liu still doesn&#039;t see the Chinese (Qing) Empire as something that could have actively participated in Empire building (in Tibet), in the same ways as the Britih, French and Russian empires that she mentions.

If even people like Liu don&#039;t see the Qing as an Empire, will the Chinese Empire every be written back into the PRC narrative of history?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m also surprised by some of the views that Liu expresses here. Particularly the view of Tibet. </p>
<p>&#8220;我在国外发现，很多知识，甚至是左翼知识分子，在西藏问题上都是跟着主流媒体走的。他们问我怎么看，我会告诉他们，西藏的事情从来不止是西藏与整个中国的事情，一定要在全球格局和殖民历史的上下文中来看&#8221;<br />
&#8220;While I was outside China, I discovered that most intellectuals, even left wing intellectuals, have the same views of Tibet as the mainstream media. They ask me what I think, and I say that the Tibet issue has never just been an issue between China and Tibet. Rather you have to see it within the context of the history of [Euro-American] imperialism and globalisation.&#8221;</p>
<p>True enough, but what surprises me, is that despite being well connected with those non-PRC China scholarship, Liu still doesn&#8217;t see the Chinese (Qing) Empire as something that could have actively participated in Empire building (in Tibet), in the same ways as the Britih, French and Russian empires that she mentions.</p>
<p>If even people like Liu don&#8217;t see the Qing as an Empire, will the Chinese Empire every be written back into the PRC narrative of history?</p>
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		<title>By: slowboat</title>
		<link>http://www.froginawell.net/china/2008/08/what-can-china-learn-from-the-jews/comment-page-1/#comment-127030</link>
		<dc:creator>slowboat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 10:20:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.froginawell.net/china/?p=568#comment-127030</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;[I]t is not mere kvetching that has made even a hint of antisemitism unacceptable in polite society in the West, but rather the legacy of certain historical events.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

This statement seems to suggest that the legacy of historical events alone &quot;has made even a hint of antisemitism unacceptable in polite society in the West,&quot; which in turn suggests that the this legacy acts with equal force on all societies within the West.

Accepting at face value the statement that kvetching is a non-factor, are you suggesting either that (1) anti-semitism is uniformly unacceptable throughout the West (but how then to explain differing degrees of tolerance for &quot;anti-semitic&quot; practices between, e.g., the U.S. and France?
); OR (2) Western societies differ in the degrees to which they tolerate anti-semitism?

And, where (a) the legacy of certain historical events acts with equal force on all societies within the West and (b) kvetching is a non-factor, IF (2), THEN how?

Full disclosure: I am not a Jew.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>[I]t is not mere kvetching that has made even a hint of antisemitism unacceptable in polite society in the West, but rather the legacy of certain historical events.</p></blockquote>
<p>This statement seems to suggest that the legacy of historical events alone &#8220;has made even a hint of antisemitism unacceptable in polite society in the West,&#8221; which in turn suggests that the this legacy acts with equal force on all societies within the West.</p>
<p>Accepting at face value the statement that kvetching is a non-factor, are you suggesting either that (1) anti-semitism is uniformly unacceptable throughout the West (but how then to explain differing degrees of tolerance for &#8220;anti-semitic&#8221; practices between, e.g., the U.S. and France?<br />
); OR (2) Western societies differ in the degrees to which they tolerate anti-semitism?</p>
<p>And, where (a) the legacy of certain historical events acts with equal force on all societies within the West and (b) kvetching is a non-factor, IF (2), THEN how?</p>
<p>Full disclosure: I am not a Jew.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Dresner</title>
		<link>http://www.froginawell.net/china/2008/08/what-can-china-learn-from-the-jews/comment-page-1/#comment-126681</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Dresner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Aug 2008 15:28:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.froginawell.net/china/?p=568#comment-126681</guid>
		<description>The &quot;Jewish Model&quot; is pretty popular these days -- &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/south_asian_studies_at_aspac.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Indian groups have borrowed from it as well&lt;/a&gt; -- but I think you&#039;re underestimating the ambition of the Chinese version. They want to turn 19c Imperialism into a Holocaust. It&#039;s worked, to some extent, with the Japanese (though the backlash is pretty strong, complete with denialists, etc.), but it&#039;s going to be extremely hard to get Americans to see their involvement in China as similarly problematic -- &quot;Special Relationship&quot; and all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8220;Jewish Model&#8221; is pretty popular these days &#8212; <a href="http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/south_asian_studies_at_aspac.html" rel="nofollow">Indian groups have borrowed from it as well</a> &#8212; but I think you&#8217;re underestimating the ambition of the Chinese version. They want to turn 19c Imperialism into a Holocaust. It&#8217;s worked, to some extent, with the Japanese (though the backlash is pretty strong, complete with denialists, etc.), but it&#8217;s going to be extremely hard to get Americans to see their involvement in China as similarly problematic &#8212; &#8220;Special Relationship&#8221; and all.</p>
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