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	<title>Comments on: Contra Hip-Hop (Xunzi on Music)</title>
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	<link>http://www.froginawell.net/china/2008/12/contra-hip-hop-xunzi-on-music/</link>
	<description>The China History Group Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Frog in a Well - The China History Group Blog</title>
		<link>http://www.froginawell.net/china/2008/12/contra-hip-hop-xunzi-on-music/comment-page-1/#comment-136352</link>
		<dc:creator>Frog in a Well - The China History Group Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 17:18:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.froginawell.net/china/?p=908#comment-136352</guid>
		<description>[...] with this. You would also have to ignore all the Confucian stuff about how music is not -good- but -powerful- and that music can both inspire virute and inspire bad behavior. (Such as sex and excessive [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] with this. You would also have to ignore all the Confucian stuff about how music is not -good- but -powerful- and that music can both inspire virute and inspire bad behavior. (Such as sex and excessive [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Chuck Wooldridge</title>
		<link>http://www.froginawell.net/china/2008/12/contra-hip-hop-xunzi-on-music/comment-page-1/#comment-136032</link>
		<dc:creator>Chuck Wooldridge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 04:16:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.froginawell.net/china/?p=908#comment-136032</guid>
		<description>I had wanted to mention (in response to your previous post) one way of connecting Xunzi to kids today.  Dave Eggers, in his memoir, talks about trying to scatter his mother&#039;s ashes into Lake Michigan.  It doesn&#039;t work out.  The wind is blowing toward him, so he winds up with bits of his mom all over him.  He&#039;d been meaning to do something kind of spiritual and cathartic, but just winds up feeling sick to his stomach.  That&#039;s the example I give in classes to illustrate how ritual can still be important.  Eggers wanted to find the right gesture, the right thing to do to express and transform his emotional state.


Screwing up with dignity -- wouldn&#039;t the sincere person have prepared well enough that screwing up was at best unlikely?  Does Xunzi never speak of &quot;shi li&quot; 失禮?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had wanted to mention (in response to your previous post) one way of connecting Xunzi to kids today.  Dave Eggers, in his memoir, talks about trying to scatter his mother&#8217;s ashes into Lake Michigan.  It doesn&#8217;t work out.  The wind is blowing toward him, so he winds up with bits of his mom all over him.  He&#8217;d been meaning to do something kind of spiritual and cathartic, but just winds up feeling sick to his stomach.  That&#8217;s the example I give in classes to illustrate how ritual can still be important.  Eggers wanted to find the right gesture, the right thing to do to express and transform his emotional state.</p>
<p>Screwing up with dignity &#8212; wouldn&#8217;t the sincere person have prepared well enough that screwing up was at best unlikely?  Does Xunzi never speak of &#8220;shi li&#8221; 失禮?</p>
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		<title>By: davesgonechina</title>
		<link>http://www.froginawell.net/china/2008/12/contra-hip-hop-xunzi-on-music/comment-page-1/#comment-135634</link>
		<dc:creator>davesgonechina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Dec 2008 08:30:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.froginawell.net/china/?p=908#comment-135634</guid>
		<description>I have a question: does traditional ritual shed any light on the Mainland habit of blasting pop music at deafening levels at the entrances to stores during their grand openings? Does ritual give us any insight into the importance of renao?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a question: does traditional ritual shed any light on the Mainland habit of blasting pop music at deafening levels at the entrances to stores during their grand openings? Does ritual give us any insight into the importance of renao?</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Baumler</title>
		<link>http://www.froginawell.net/china/2008/12/contra-hip-hop-xunzi-on-music/comment-page-1/#comment-135515</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Baumler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Dec 2008 19:25:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.froginawell.net/china/?p=908#comment-135515</guid>
		<description>Chris and Sam, 
  You might want to look at this on music and Confucianism

http://lrc.reviewcanada.ca/index.php?page=the-karaoke-classics</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris and Sam,<br />
  You might want to look at this on music and Confucianism</p>
<p><a href="http://lrc.reviewcanada.ca/index.php?page=the-karaoke-classics" rel="nofollow">http://lrc.reviewcanada.ca/index.php?page=the-karaoke-classics</a></p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.froginawell.net/china/2008/12/contra-hip-hop-xunzi-on-music/comment-page-1/#comment-135462</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 23:20:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.froginawell.net/china/?p=908#comment-135462</guid>
		<description>Sam,

It feels like a stronger point, something like: musically harmonious individuals can&#039;t fail to be socially harmonious individuals. Perhaps the belief is that musical harmony requires the recognition of, and appreciation for, the way difference can be made to work together in an aesthetically pleasing manner. As a result, appreciating musical harmony will spill over into one&#039;s interpersonal relationships -- one would not bear to see the sight of people interacting in a way that lacks this kind of aesthetic. Xunzi talks this way in places (I don&#039;t know the references offhand) -- as if the sage kings and exemplary people are repulsed by the ugliness of what lacks social harmony.   

Or perhaps your point can be consistent with this one: perhaps if Yang Hu bothered to learn musical harmony, he would be repulsed by his brigand ways, and would be forced to reform himself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sam,</p>
<p>It feels like a stronger point, something like: musically harmonious individuals can&#8217;t fail to be socially harmonious individuals. Perhaps the belief is that musical harmony requires the recognition of, and appreciation for, the way difference can be made to work together in an aesthetically pleasing manner. As a result, appreciating musical harmony will spill over into one&#8217;s interpersonal relationships &#8212; one would not bear to see the sight of people interacting in a way that lacks this kind of aesthetic. Xunzi talks this way in places (I don&#8217;t know the references offhand) &#8212; as if the sage kings and exemplary people are repulsed by the ugliness of what lacks social harmony.   </p>
<p>Or perhaps your point can be consistent with this one: perhaps if Yang Hu bothered to learn musical harmony, he would be repulsed by his brigand ways, and would be forced to reform himself.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam</title>
		<link>http://www.froginawell.net/china/2008/12/contra-hip-hop-xunzi-on-music/comment-page-1/#comment-135452</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:14:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.froginawell.net/china/?p=908#comment-135452</guid>
		<description>I read it as more of the latter: that the singing showed a certain civility and it is that civility that is transformative: it made the soldiers walk away.  Yang Hu, a bad guy, could never appreciate and thus perform music so well.  Indeed, this seems to be true by definition: bad guys are too busy doing bad stuff to take the time to learn and practice moral uplift, which can be gained through music.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read it as more of the latter: that the singing showed a certain civility and it is that civility that is transformative: it made the soldiers walk away.  Yang Hu, a bad guy, could never appreciate and thus perform music so well.  Indeed, this seems to be true by definition: bad guys are too busy doing bad stuff to take the time to learn and practice moral uplift, which can be gained through music.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.froginawell.net/china/2008/12/contra-hip-hop-xunzi-on-music/comment-page-1/#comment-135449</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 13:29:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.froginawell.net/china/?p=908#comment-135449</guid>
		<description>Sam (or Alan):

Chin&#039;s explanation of it seems to remove a bit of the &quot;magical&quot; causal efficacy of music, if I&#039;m reading it correctly. If the soldiers dispersed because Confucius singing convinced them he wasn&#039;t Yang Hu, that leads me to think something like &quot;oh, heck, Yang Hu can sing better than _that_!&quot; or something of that nature (or maybe Confucius sang better than Yang Hu). 

I don&#039;t know the story, though. Is there something I&#039;m missing?

Or was it rather something like this: they were thinking &quot;someone who can sing so well can&#039;t possibly be in league with that brigand Yang Hu!&quot; If so, that would restore a bit of the &quot;magical&quot; nature, or at least suggest that the capacity for musical harmony is linked to an ability for interpersonal/political harmony in some way.

But I&#039;m just speculating here. What&#039;s the rest of the story?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sam (or Alan):</p>
<p>Chin&#8217;s explanation of it seems to remove a bit of the &#8220;magical&#8221; causal efficacy of music, if I&#8217;m reading it correctly. If the soldiers dispersed because Confucius singing convinced them he wasn&#8217;t Yang Hu, that leads me to think something like &#8220;oh, heck, Yang Hu can sing better than _that_!&#8221; or something of that nature (or maybe Confucius sang better than Yang Hu). </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know the story, though. Is there something I&#8217;m missing?</p>
<p>Or was it rather something like this: they were thinking &#8220;someone who can sing so well can&#8217;t possibly be in league with that brigand Yang Hu!&#8221; If so, that would restore a bit of the &#8220;magical&#8221; nature, or at least suggest that the capacity for musical harmony is linked to an ability for interpersonal/political harmony in some way.</p>
<p>But I&#8217;m just speculating here. What&#8217;s the rest of the story?</p>
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		<title>By: Sam</title>
		<link>http://www.froginawell.net/china/2008/12/contra-hip-hop-xunzi-on-music/comment-page-1/#comment-135434</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 02:25:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.froginawell.net/china/?p=908#comment-135434</guid>
		<description>Great post.  I blog it a bit here:
http://uselesstree.typepad.com/useless_tree/2008/12/demon-rock-and-roll.html

And I just found something fun in Annping Chin&#039;s book, The Authentic Confucius (p. 104).  She is recounting a Han dynasty account of the trouble Confucius ran into when he was traveling in Kuang.  Apparently, Confucius and his crew were surrounded by enemy soldiers.  And what did they do to get out of it? The Han text reports this:

[Confucius said]&quot;Why don&#039;t you sing a melody and I will do the harmony?&quot;  Zilu sang and Confucius harmonized.  After three rounds, the soldiers dispersed, and the siege was over.

Chin then adds: &quot;According to this Han writer, it was, therefore, with &quot;the sound of strings and singing&quot; that Confucius persuaded the crowd in Kuang &quot;he was not Yang Hu&quot;: &quot;he did not have to resort to words to defend himself.&quot;&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post.  I blog it a bit here:<br />
<a href="http://uselesstree.typepad.com/useless_tree/2008/12/demon-rock-and-roll.html" rel="nofollow">http://uselesstree.typepad.com/useless_tree/2008/12/demon-rock-and-roll.html</a></p>
<p>And I just found something fun in Annping Chin&#8217;s book, The Authentic Confucius (p. 104).  She is recounting a Han dynasty account of the trouble Confucius ran into when he was traveling in Kuang.  Apparently, Confucius and his crew were surrounded by enemy soldiers.  And what did they do to get out of it? The Han text reports this:</p>
<p>[Confucius said]&#8220;Why don&#8217;t you sing a melody and I will do the harmony?&#8221;  Zilu sang and Confucius harmonized.  After three rounds, the soldiers dispersed, and the siege was over.</p>
<p>Chin then adds: &#8220;According to this Han writer, it was, therefore, with &#8220;the sound of strings and singing&#8221; that Confucius persuaded the crowd in Kuang &#8220;he was not Yang Hu&#8221;: &#8220;he did not have to resort to words to defend himself.&#8221;"</p>
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