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	<title>Comments for 井底之蛙</title>
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	<link>http://www.froginawell.net/china</link>
	<description>The China History Group Blog</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 22 May 2013 02:20:44 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Reconsidering Marco Polo by John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://www.froginawell.net/china/2012/09/reconsidering-marco-polo/comment-page-1/#comment-253759</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 May 2013 02:20:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.froginawell.net/china/?p=146#comment-253759</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I still don&#039;t get it AT ALL.

&quot;Marco Polo’s Travels is a bad historical source that should not be relied upon for anything which cannot be independently verified.&quot;

What other kind of source is there? For example, I&#039;ve read the two earliest biographies of Charlemagne, one by a contemporary. Both have evident errors. People still use them, with care.

People who write about that era combine multiple sources in Persian, Chinese, Mongol, Latin, Greek, Italian, Arabic, Armenian, Syriac, and Tibetan in order to put the picture together. No source is completely reliable. People who have done that (e.g. Paul Pelliot and Igor de Rachewiltz, both of who read five or more of those languages) do not doubt Marco Polo the way you do. But I guess that they&#039;re a special interest group or something.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I still don&#8217;t get it AT ALL.</p>
<p>&#8220;Marco Polo’s Travels is a bad historical source that should not be relied upon for anything which cannot be independently verified.&#8221;</p>
<p>What other kind of source is there? For example, I&#8217;ve read the two earliest biographies of Charlemagne, one by a contemporary. Both have evident errors. People still use them, with care.</p>
<p>People who write about that era combine multiple sources in Persian, Chinese, Mongol, Latin, Greek, Italian, Arabic, Armenian, Syriac, and Tibetan in order to put the picture together. No source is completely reliable. People who have done that (e.g. Paul Pelliot and Igor de Rachewiltz, both of who read five or more of those languages) do not doubt Marco Polo the way you do. But I guess that they&#8217;re a special interest group or something.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Reconsidering Marco Polo by John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://www.froginawell.net/china/2012/09/reconsidering-marco-polo/comment-page-1/#comment-253756</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 May 2013 02:01:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.froginawell.net/china/?p=146#comment-253756</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;If there’s one thing Polan scholars can’t stand, it’s to have Polo’s work seriously questioned&quot;..... by people who rely entirely on secondary sources, and not many of them. I know that it offends you that there is an enormous literature on Polo, but you should read some of it.

And I don&#039;t really see any particular motive for the skepticism. Polo wasn&#039;t the only one to travel that route. He wasn&#039;t even the only one to write a report. There&#039;s really nothing unusual to set off the alarm bells. For the first time, and not for long, transcontinental travel had become possible. The distances were never the problem, it&#039;s only 5000 miles from Paris to Beijing, and Polo started from much closer than that.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If there’s one thing Polan scholars can’t stand, it’s to have Polo’s work seriously questioned&#8221;&#8230;.. by people who rely entirely on secondary sources, and not many of them. I know that it offends you that there is an enormous literature on Polo, but you should read some of it.</p>
<p>And I don&#8217;t really see any particular motive for the skepticism. Polo wasn&#8217;t the only one to travel that route. He wasn&#8217;t even the only one to write a report. There&#8217;s really nothing unusual to set off the alarm bells. For the first time, and not for long, transcontinental travel had become possible. The distances were never the problem, it&#8217;s only 5000 miles from Paris to Beijing, and Polo started from much closer than that.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Reconsidering Marco Polo by John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://www.froginawell.net/china/2012/09/reconsidering-marco-polo/comment-page-1/#comment-253755</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 May 2013 01:50:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.froginawell.net/china/?p=146#comment-253755</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Check out George Coedes&#039;s &quot;Textes d&#039;auteurs grecs et latins relatifs à l&#039;Extrême-Orient depuis le IVe siècle av: J.-C. jusqu&#039;au XIVe siècle&quot;, which cites and translates into French everything written in Greek or Latin about China and the Far East during that period. Beyond the fact that China is at the far east of Eurasia and that silk comes from there, there&#039;s almost nothing. There&#039;s an enormous amount of misinformation (Chinese have red hair and green eyes) and some utopian stuff about a land without crime and adultery.

There was one single factual report in this mass, gathered from an ambassador from the Turkish Empire to the Byzantines ca. 600. It&#039;s pretty sketchy, but can be shown to describe the foundation of the Sui dynasty.

During this same period Arab and Persian sailors brought back extensive information about China, but it was apparently not translated into Latin or Greek. After the rise of the Parthians and, even more so, the rise of Islam,  travel to China became essentially impossible for Europeans.

The Mongols changed this, and after about 1250  a number of Westerners visitedsome part of China or neighboring areas in Mongolia and Central Asia. A number of awritten reports survive, almost all of them by priests except Polo&#039;s. (There is also a report by a Turkish Christian who travelled from Mongol C. Asia near China to Europe, and a report in French by an Armenian prince).

Of the information brought by Polo, there&#039;s an enormous amount that&#039;s verifiable, and it fills a vacuum. There&#039;s also a lot that isn&#039;t, and if you cherry pick it it seems intimidating, but the skeptical arguments don&#039;t add up. 

The dating of Marco Polo is uncontroversial, and over a hundred manuscript copies circulated before it was first printed.

A case can be made that Polo made a lot of mistakes, but most historical sources do that. A case can be made that he lied some, but that only touches a few particular lies. By a very long stretch, a case can be made that everything he said was second hand, but I don&#039;t see the point. His new information was voluminous and mostly mostly good , and if he had the information he got it from someone who did go  to China, so the only thing that seems to be at doubt is whether he personally was the one who went to China, and that hardly seems worth bothering with. All you get is one or several John Does and Richard Roes not named Marco Polo who did go, plus Marco sitting in the Crimea writing everything down and pretending it was first hand knowledge. (Though he did not claim that everything was first hand knowledge).

I find the skepticism baffling. You&#039;ve set up this story line of brave skeptics against stick in the mud scholars who have an axe to grind, but you argue from ethnocentric ignorance. 

I find the belief that inaccuracies imply fraud particularly problematic. If someone found a supposed new manuscript that squared in every way with contemporary scholarly opinion, that would lead on to suspect a  forgery based on contemporary secondary materials. What you want new materials for is to change the contemporary consensus, and most new sources are very obliging that way. 

https://digitalcollections.anu.edu.au/bitstream/1885/41883/1/Marcopolo.html

http://www.amazon.com/Textes-dauteurs-latins-relatifs-lExtr%C3%AAme-Orient/dp/B003YOSPK6]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Check out George Coedes&#8217;s &#8220;Textes d&#8217;auteurs grecs et latins relatifs à l&#8217;Extrême-Orient depuis le IVe siècle av: J.-C. jusqu&#8217;au XIVe siècle&#8221;, which cites and translates into French everything written in Greek or Latin about China and the Far East during that period. Beyond the fact that China is at the far east of Eurasia and that silk comes from there, there&#8217;s almost nothing. There&#8217;s an enormous amount of misinformation (Chinese have red hair and green eyes) and some utopian stuff about a land without crime and adultery.</p>
<p>There was one single factual report in this mass, gathered from an ambassador from the Turkish Empire to the Byzantines ca. 600. It&#8217;s pretty sketchy, but can be shown to describe the foundation of the Sui dynasty.</p>
<p>During this same period Arab and Persian sailors brought back extensive information about China, but it was apparently not translated into Latin or Greek. After the rise of the Parthians and, even more so, the rise of Islam,  travel to China became essentially impossible for Europeans.</p>
<p>The Mongols changed this, and after about 1250  a number of Westerners visitedsome part of China or neighboring areas in Mongolia and Central Asia. A number of awritten reports survive, almost all of them by priests except Polo&#8217;s. (There is also a report by a Turkish Christian who travelled from Mongol C. Asia near China to Europe, and a report in French by an Armenian prince).</p>
<p>Of the information brought by Polo, there&#8217;s an enormous amount that&#8217;s verifiable, and it fills a vacuum. There&#8217;s also a lot that isn&#8217;t, and if you cherry pick it it seems intimidating, but the skeptical arguments don&#8217;t add up. </p>
<p>The dating of Marco Polo is uncontroversial, and over a hundred manuscript copies circulated before it was first printed.</p>
<p>A case can be made that Polo made a lot of mistakes, but most historical sources do that. A case can be made that he lied some, but that only touches a few particular lies. By a very long stretch, a case can be made that everything he said was second hand, but I don&#8217;t see the point. His new information was voluminous and mostly mostly good , and if he had the information he got it from someone who did go  to China, so the only thing that seems to be at doubt is whether he personally was the one who went to China, and that hardly seems worth bothering with. All you get is one or several John Does and Richard Roes not named Marco Polo who did go, plus Marco sitting in the Crimea writing everything down and pretending it was first hand knowledge. (Though he did not claim that everything was first hand knowledge).</p>
<p>I find the skepticism baffling. You&#8217;ve set up this story line of brave skeptics against stick in the mud scholars who have an axe to grind, but you argue from ethnocentric ignorance. </p>
<p>I find the belief that inaccuracies imply fraud particularly problematic. If someone found a supposed new manuscript that squared in every way with contemporary scholarly opinion, that would lead on to suspect a  forgery based on contemporary secondary materials. What you want new materials for is to change the contemporary consensus, and most new sources are very obliging that way. </p>
<p><a href="https://digitalcollections.anu.edu.au/bitstream/1885/41883/1/Marcopolo.html" rel="nofollow">https://digitalcollections.anu.edu.au/bitstream/1885/41883/1/Marcopolo.html</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Textes-dauteurs-latins-relatifs-lExtr%C3%AAme-Orient/dp/B003YOSPK6" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/Textes-dauteurs-latins-relatifs-lExtr%C3%AAme-Orient/dp/B003YOSPK6</a></p>
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		<title>Comment on History and hats by Alan Baumler</title>
		<link>http://www.froginawell.net/china/2013/05/history-and-hats/comment-page-1/#comment-253724</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Baumler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 08:20:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.froginawell.net/china/?p=3199#comment-253724</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Alex,
  Glad you liked the post, but I would not really call it a review. There is a nice review here http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2003/oct/25/featuresreviews.guardianreview12 It is a really good book.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alex,<br />
  Glad you liked the post, but I would not really call it a review. There is a nice review here <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2003/oct/25/featuresreviews.guardianreview12" rel="nofollow">http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2003/oct/25/featuresreviews.guardianreview12</a> It is a really good book.</p>
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		<title>Comment on History and hats by Alex F Wong</title>
		<link>http://www.froginawell.net/china/2013/05/history-and-hats/comment-page-1/#comment-253717</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex F Wong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 May 2013 23:50:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.froginawell.net/china/?p=3199#comment-253717</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This book review  somehow reminds me of one of the figures in Lytton Strachey&#039;s Eminent Victorian - General Gordon. Born and bred in Shanghai I never fully appreciated and realized the heritage of this fairly young but rather complicated and colorful city until I graduated from college, maybe we are too just close.  However I do believe many people, foreign expats or migrant Chinese alike or maybe even native Shanghaiese themselves, are still adrift in Shanghai, neither here nor there.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This book review  somehow reminds me of one of the figures in Lytton Strachey&#8217;s Eminent Victorian &#8211; General Gordon. Born and bred in Shanghai I never fully appreciated and realized the heritage of this fairly young but rather complicated and colorful city until I graduated from college, maybe we are too just close.  However I do believe many people, foreign expats or migrant Chinese alike or maybe even native Shanghaiese themselves, are still adrift in Shanghai, neither here nor there.</p>
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		<title>Comment on History and hats by Jonathan Dresner</title>
		<link>http://www.froginawell.net/china/2013/05/history-and-hats/comment-page-1/#comment-253006</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Dresner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 May 2013 01:58:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.froginawell.net/china/?p=3199#comment-253006</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That&#039;s the first book about Shanghai history I&#039;ve ever heard of that actually sounds like fun. 

Tempting to tell the students about the berets at the beginning, and see if they can make any more sense of it by the end.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s the first book about Shanghai history I&#8217;ve ever heard of that actually sounds like fun. </p>
<p>Tempting to tell the students about the berets at the beginning, and see if they can make any more sense of it by the end.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Bald Chinese by John Sabotta</title>
		<link>http://www.froginawell.net/china/2013/03/bald-chinese/comment-page-1/#comment-248566</link>
		<dc:creator>John Sabotta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 May 2013 01:55:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.froginawell.net/china/?p=3123#comment-248566</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Note the Irish thug, complete with handy bludgeon. Unfortunately, there is more than a little truth to that picture - the willingness of the Irish, after enduring ethnic and religious persecution themselves, here and abroad to turn and try to apply the same treatment to other ethnic groups is depressing. Actually, for &quot;Irish&quot; substitute &quot;human&quot; which is even more depressing.

(Actually, looking at the mob, it&#039;s pretty multicultural, isn&#039;t it?)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Note the Irish thug, complete with handy bludgeon. Unfortunately, there is more than a little truth to that picture &#8211; the willingness of the Irish, after enduring ethnic and religious persecution themselves, here and abroad to turn and try to apply the same treatment to other ethnic groups is depressing. Actually, for &#8220;Irish&#8221; substitute &#8220;human&#8221; which is even more depressing.</p>
<p>(Actually, looking at the mob, it&#8217;s pretty multicultural, isn&#8217;t it?)</p>
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		<title>Comment on 樂學書局: The Lexis Book Co. by Tonio</title>
		<link>http://www.froginawell.net/china/2008/07/%e6%a8%82%e5%ad%b8%e6%9b%b8%e5%b1%80-the-lexis-book-co/comment-page-1/#comment-247946</link>
		<dc:creator>Tonio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 May 2013 12:57:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.froginawell.net/china/?p=460#comment-247946</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Greg, I&#039;ve been looking for them as well. I used to go there frequently when I lived in Taiwan and I ordered books from them when I returned. They used to send me their catalog once a quarter but stopped doing so a few years back. Now I haven&#039;t been able to find them. Have they gone out of business? They were wonderful.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg, I&#8217;ve been looking for them as well. I used to go there frequently when I lived in Taiwan and I ordered books from them when I returned. They used to send me their catalog once a quarter but stopped doing so a few years back. Now I haven&#8217;t been able to find them. Have they gone out of business? They were wonderful.</p>
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