Comments on: A disappointment http://www.froginawell.net/japan/2008/09/a-disappointment/ The Japan History Group Blog Sun, 27 Nov 2011 22:45:05 -0800 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.3 By: Jonathan Dresner http://www.froginawell.net/japan/2008/09/a-disappointment/comment-page-1/#comment-166300 Jonathan Dresner Mon, 22 Sep 2008 05:01:27 +0000 http://www.froginawell.net/japan/?p=401#comment-166300 <b>Morgan</b>: I admit, it's a term I just made up, though it pretty accurately describes how I tell the story. Oda Nobunaga was not much of an institutional innovator; I mention him sometimes because the "three unifiers" is still an active cliche, but I don't consider him a hugely important figure (especially not in the context of a World History survey, where my time is limited). Some of the key components of Hideyoshi's post-unification pacification weren't original, but the entire package certainly demonstrated a remarkable vision; Tokugawa Ieyasu added some useful elements, and institutionalized the whole thing with a secure succession. One of the things that does bug me about the text is that it credits pacification to the Tokugawa without mentioning Hideyoshi, a even more outdated narrative than the "three unifiers." (The only mentions of Hideyoshi are in the context of the military unification of the islands, followed by the clever use of the Korea campaigns to siphon off samurai, and his cadastral surveys which are in the context of mapping and survey projects elsewhere) Telling the story of Hideyoshi and Ieyasu in the context of state-building processes elsewhere is very effective: it introduces lots of key Japanese history concepts, but also puts it in the context of broader trends. <b>Chris</b>: I give you a lot of credit for finding a way to make that terminology work, but the continuing distinction between daimyo as samurai and court aristocrats as nobility makes it a pretty tendentious phrasing in any event. There wasn't a "samurai nobility" separate from their status as daimyo who were sometimes elevated to daimyo status, at least not that I'm aware of. Morgan: I admit, it’s a term I just made up, though it pretty accurately describes how I tell the story. Oda Nobunaga was not much of an institutional innovator; I mention him sometimes because the “three unifiers” is still an active cliche, but I don’t consider him a hugely important figure (especially not in the context of a World History survey, where my time is limited). Some of the key components of Hideyoshi’s post-unification pacification weren’t original, but the entire package certainly demonstrated a remarkable vision; Tokugawa Ieyasu added some useful elements, and institutionalized the whole thing with a secure succession. One of the things that does bug me about the text is that it credits pacification to the Tokugawa without mentioning Hideyoshi, a even more outdated narrative than the “three unifiers.” (The only mentions of Hideyoshi are in the context of the military unification of the islands, followed by the clever use of the Korea campaigns to siphon off samurai, and his cadastral surveys which are in the context of mapping and survey projects elsewhere) Telling the story of Hideyoshi and Ieyasu in the context of state-building processes elsewhere is very effective: it introduces lots of key Japanese history concepts, but also puts it in the context of broader trends.

Chris: I give you a lot of credit for finding a way to make that terminology work, but the continuing distinction between daimyo as samurai and court aristocrats as nobility makes it a pretty tendentious phrasing in any event. There wasn’t a “samurai nobility” separate from their status as daimyo who were sometimes elevated to daimyo status, at least not that I’m aware of.

]]> By: Chris Weimer http://www.froginawell.net/japan/2008/09/a-disappointment/comment-page-1/#comment-166290 Chris Weimer Mon, 22 Sep 2008 02:36:31 +0000 http://www.froginawell.net/japan/?p=401#comment-166290 Perhaps a parallel for daimyo as noble would be in the Roman system, where the "noble class" of "noble blood" would be the patricians, while any commoner who achieved the consulate, the highest civil magistracy apart from "censor", automatically made their line "noble", but not "patrician" since they still lacked that ancient blood. I think he might be using it in a similar fashion, that is humble or royal origins aside, it's the *class* that made it "noble". Chris Perhaps a parallel for daimyo as noble would be in the Roman system, where the “noble class” of “noble blood” would be the patricians, while any commoner who achieved the consulate, the highest civil magistracy apart from “censor”, automatically made their line “noble”, but not “patrician” since they still lacked that ancient blood. I think he might be using it in a similar fashion, that is humble or royal origins aside, it’s the *class* that made it “noble”.

Chris

]]> By: Morgan Pitelka http://www.froginawell.net/japan/2008/09/a-disappointment/comment-page-1/#comment-166289 Morgan Pitelka Mon, 22 Sep 2008 02:34:16 +0000 http://www.froginawell.net/japan/?p=401#comment-166289 What exactly is this "Hideyoshi-Tokugawa process"? The phrase just doesn't work; the given name of one warlord glued together with the surname of one of his peers who later founded the Tokugawa shogunate. Surely the process of unification cannot be credited to Hideyoshi and Ieyasu without some mention of Oda Nobunaga. And aren't we over that whole "three heroes" model anyway? What exactly is this “Hideyoshi-Tokugawa process”? The phrase just doesn’t work; the given name of one warlord glued together with the surname of one of his peers who later founded the Tokugawa shogunate. Surely the process of unification cannot be credited to Hideyoshi and Ieyasu without some mention of Oda Nobunaga. And aren’t we over that whole “three heroes” model anyway?

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