<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Things I don&#8217;t know about Korea, part 1 of many</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.froginawell.net/korea/2010/02/things-i-dont-know-about-korea-part-1-of-many/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.froginawell.net/korea/2010/02/things-i-dont-know-about-korea-part-1-of-many/</link>
	<description>The Korea History Group Blog</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 16 Oct 2011 01:29:23 -0700</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Aurelien Laroulandie</title>
		<link>http://www.froginawell.net/korea/2010/02/things-i-dont-know-about-korea-part-1-of-many/comment-page-1/#comment-78689</link>
		<dc:creator>Aurelien Laroulandie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 May 2010 20:40:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.froginawell.net/korea/?p=372#comment-78689</guid>
		<description>Hi everyone,

Even if answers were given more than one month ago, I might bring back to life this topic to offer another point of view on one of the questions raised behind.

Working myself on 17th century Chosŏn, I read some time ago quite intensely Palais&#039; &quot;Confucian Statecraft&quot;. He dealt indeed very precisely with 17th military institutions&#039; reform, but I do not remember anything about a training unit for the explicit usage of the navy. However, training units did exist, for instance the Hullyŏn togam 訓練都監 which trained soldiers using firearms. Navy gunners were mentionned above, they have to be trained somehow because you can not fire a cannon without previous training, and I guess it was in the Hullyŏn togam.

As for the question about outlaws&#039; recrutment, we do know the importance of piracy in the region, and we do know also that Chosŏn navy recruted at several occasions former pirates to strenghten their troops, or just to reduce the piracy groups. This was done at least at two occasions, under Sejong and once in the mid-15th century. I guess this was often repeated, I think in particular of the Imjin war, but I am not sure and someone else might confirm. Of course, this lead to other questions such as how to integrate pirates, especially the ones who were not Japanese or Chinese, into a national army. But this is another story.

If you still look for more precise information, Eugene Park&#039;s &quot;Between Dreams and Reality: The Military Examination in Late Choson Korea , 1600-1894 (Cambridge: Harvard University Asia Center, 2007) might be the solution, if you did not yet look at it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi everyone,</p>
<p>Even if answers were given more than one month ago, I might bring back to life this topic to offer another point of view on one of the questions raised behind.</p>
<p>Working myself on 17th century Chosŏn, I read some time ago quite intensely Palais&#8217; &#8220;Confucian Statecraft&#8221;. He dealt indeed very precisely with 17th military institutions&#8217; reform, but I do not remember anything about a training unit for the explicit usage of the navy. However, training units did exist, for instance the Hullyŏn togam 訓練都監 which trained soldiers using firearms. Navy gunners were mentionned above, they have to be trained somehow because you can not fire a cannon without previous training, and I guess it was in the Hullyŏn togam.</p>
<p>As for the question about outlaws&#8217; recrutment, we do know the importance of piracy in the region, and we do know also that Chosŏn navy recruted at several occasions former pirates to strenghten their troops, or just to reduce the piracy groups. This was done at least at two occasions, under Sejong and once in the mid-15th century. I guess this was often repeated, I think in particular of the Imjin war, but I am not sure and someone else might confirm. Of course, this lead to other questions such as how to integrate pirates, especially the ones who were not Japanese or Chinese, into a national army. But this is another story.</p>
<p>If you still look for more precise information, Eugene Park&#8217;s &#8220;Between Dreams and Reality: The Military Examination in Late Choson Korea , 1600-1894 (Cambridge: Harvard University Asia Center, 2007) might be the solution, if you did not yet look at it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Javier Cha</title>
		<link>http://www.froginawell.net/korea/2010/02/things-i-dont-know-about-korea-part-1-of-many/comment-page-1/#comment-78128</link>
		<dc:creator>Javier Cha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.froginawell.net/korea/?p=372#comment-78128</guid>
		<description>We can draw some estimates of Choson social composition using proxy data, but such figures are highly disputable and subject to wide regional variations. The yangban/chungin/commoner/base division is also very tricky. Yangban denotes a sociopolitical elite, since the term originates from those members of society who can potentially rise to the position of the two ranks in the central bureaucracy. The problem is that yangban was not a common actor&#039;s category in Choson (they preferred to refer to themselves as sa 士 or sajok 士族) and plus not every Choson elite pursued officialdom or partook in civil examinations. The Haenam Yun family in the southwest, for example, amassed enormous estates and boasted owning hundreds of servants/slaves but extremely few clan members (something like less than ten in five hundred years of Choson) passed the higher civil examinations.

The most thorough Choson institutional history in English would be Palais&#039; second book, Confucian Statecraft and Korean Institutions. The book itself has some problems because the author is split between treating this work as intellectual or institutional history. Rather often, the book conflates the author&#039;s own perspectives with the arguments of Yu Hyongwon, the purported target of analysis, and some of the later chapters completely leave out Yu Hyongwon from the picture altogether. But Palais is extremely erudite, that is undeniable, and offers some exceptional insights. He devotes a whole section to the Choson military system. His arguments need to be taken with some caution but the book is still definitely worth reading.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We can draw some estimates of Choson social composition using proxy data, but such figures are highly disputable and subject to wide regional variations. The yangban/chungin/commoner/base division is also very tricky. Yangban denotes a sociopolitical elite, since the term originates from those members of society who can potentially rise to the position of the two ranks in the central bureaucracy. The problem is that yangban was not a common actor&#8217;s category in Choson (they preferred to refer to themselves as sa 士 or sajok 士族) and plus not every Choson elite pursued officialdom or partook in civil examinations. The Haenam Yun family in the southwest, for example, amassed enormous estates and boasted owning hundreds of servants/slaves but extremely few clan members (something like less than ten in five hundred years of Choson) passed the higher civil examinations.</p>
<p>The most thorough Choson institutional history in English would be Palais&#8217; second book, Confucian Statecraft and Korean Institutions. The book itself has some problems because the author is split between treating this work as intellectual or institutional history. Rather often, the book conflates the author&#8217;s own perspectives with the arguments of Yu Hyongwon, the purported target of analysis, and some of the later chapters completely leave out Yu Hyongwon from the picture altogether. But Palais is extremely erudite, that is undeniable, and offers some exceptional insights. He devotes a whole section to the Choson military system. His arguments need to be taken with some caution but the book is still definitely worth reading.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jonathan Dresner</title>
		<link>http://www.froginawell.net/korea/2010/02/things-i-dont-know-about-korea-part-1-of-many/comment-page-1/#comment-78051</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Dresner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Mar 2010 03:36:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.froginawell.net/korea/?p=372#comment-78051</guid>
		<description>Both of those were relatively rare, though, and more often done by commercial vessels than by military ones, as I understand it. 

If the Korean navy did something like that, I&#039;d expect Korea&#039;s marxist historians -- and even in the South there&#039;s a tradition of marxist social analysis in Korean historiography -- to have noted it pretty clearly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Both of those were relatively rare, though, and more often done by commercial vessels than by military ones, as I understand it. </p>
<p>If the Korean navy did something like that, I&#8217;d expect Korea&#8217;s marxist historians &#8212; and even in the South there&#8217;s a tradition of marxist social analysis in Korean historiography &#8212; to have noted it pretty clearly.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: grigri</title>
		<link>http://www.froginawell.net/korea/2010/02/things-i-dont-know-about-korea-part-1-of-many/comment-page-1/#comment-78041</link>
		<dc:creator>grigri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Mar 2010 07:15:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.froginawell.net/korea/?p=372#comment-78041</guid>
		<description>Europe has a history of &quot;pressing&quot; men into the navy- often taking the form of kidnapping.  Or, they sometimes used paroled criminals.  Could such a thing also have happened in Korea?  We know that sometimes Korean textbooks are expunged of such details, as they are now considered embarrassing.  But, I must wonder if there are any independent sources from that time that might also mention this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Europe has a history of &#8220;pressing&#8221; men into the navy- often taking the form of kidnapping.  Or, they sometimes used paroled criminals.  Could such a thing also have happened in Korea?  We know that sometimes Korean textbooks are expunged of such details, as they are now considered embarrassing.  But, I must wonder if there are any independent sources from that time that might also mention this?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jonathan Dresner</title>
		<link>http://www.froginawell.net/korea/2010/02/things-i-dont-know-about-korea-part-1-of-many/comment-page-1/#comment-77586</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Dresner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Feb 2010 16:34:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.froginawell.net/korea/?p=372#comment-77586</guid>
		<description>It does seem like the &quot;there are too many Yangban&quot; screeds start around 1600, certainly. Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It does seem like the &#8220;there are too many Yangban&#8221; screeds start around 1600, certainly. Thanks!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

